HR Means Business: HR’s Role in Supporting Employees Through Cancer

HR’s Role in Supporting Employees Through Cancer

Host: Mervyn Dinnen

Guest: Barbara Wilson, Founder and Director of Working with Cancer

Barbara is a senior HR professional with more than 40 years experience who launched Working With Cancer as a Social Enterprise in 2014 providing coaching, training and consultancy services to employers, employees, colleagues affected by cancer, carers and health professionals. From 2008 to 2010 she chaired a major element of the NHS/Macmillan 5- year Cancer Survivorship strategy, leading a multidisciplinary team developing ‘work and cancer’ support tools for employees, employers, carers and health professionals.

In this podcast interview Mervyn talks with Barbara Wilson – Founder of the social enterprise ‘Working With Cancer’ – about their latest research on how organisations can help support those in their workforce who have had, or are having, treatment for cancer.

During the conversation they discuss :

• Why do so few organisations seem to have a cancer policy in place
• Poor level of coaching offered to managers and directors to have necessary sensitive conversations with employees having cancer treatment (78% have not provided training)
• Why work is so important to cancer patients undergoing treatment
• What workplace adjustments are offered, and which ones are still needed
• The need for HR to have clear policies and practices that are easily accessible and understood by employees
• Reintegrating employees after their cancer treatment
• Advice for HR on having open conversations and the need to be understanding and supportive

Thanks for listening! Remember to subscribe to all of the HR Happy Hour Media Network shows on your favorite podcast app!

Transcript

Mervyn Dinnen 0:18
Welcome to the HR Means Business podcast, which is part of the HR Happy Hour Network, I am your host, Mervyn Dinnen. Listeners who have followed me on social media for a few years might be aware that four or five years ago, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. I was it was found by accident. The lab where a routine blood test was analyzed, actually made a mistake and ran a PSA test, and that’s when I found out that I had it. My treatment took place over a course of, well, three years, but initially I needed to go to hospital every day, Monday to Friday, for seven weeks for some radiotherapy. Now I as again, most listeners know I’m kind of self employed. I’m freelance. I work from home, so and the hospital was only like a 10 minute walk away from me. So I could, I could manage my work around that. But it got me thinking at the time, in fact, that that, you know, for people who work in organizations, who might be in a central location, or might might not live near a hospital, it would be very disruptive to their working lives. So I was particularly keen on some research that I’ve recently seen from the social enterprise working with cancer, about the level of support that organizations give their people who are going through cancer treatment whilst working, and some of the areas where maybe they might be able to support more. And I’m delighted today to welcome the founder and CEO of working with cancer, Barbara to the HR news business podcast. Barbara, would you like to introduce yourself?

Barbara Wilson 1:56
Yes. Hi, hello, Mervyn, and thank you for asking me to join today. Yeah, I’m the Founder and Director of Working with Cancer. I set it up in 2014 having had some years before an experience of breast cancer while I was working as an HR director in the city, and I found it very tough managing work in cancer, which led me, when I retired from corporate life, to set the organization up.

Mervyn Dinnen 2:26
In terms of the research, you did this in conjunction with the Institute for employment studies, yes. How did you do the research? And I suppose, initially why?

Barbara Wilson 2:38
We did the research, because we we felt there was very little research on the area. There’s been quite a lot done about employees experience, but not so much here in the UK about what employers are doing to address the issue of working cancer, and in terms of how we got people to take part, we basically used we and the IAS used our social media contacts and any other contacts we had, and asked them to complete the survey.

Mervyn Dinnen 3:10
Okay, I suppose the top top line question would then be, would you like to share some of the key findings? I suppose for you to the two or three main findings and maybe something which surprised you.

Barbara Wilson 3:27
So I think that there are two significant areas where we were, I guess, surprised by both of the both areas where we had findings. One was the fact that only 4% of the organizations we surveyed actually had any kind of cancer policy in place, and in fact, only 18% of the respondents collected data around their employees who were working with cancer so fundamentally they were flying blind they had no idea how Many of their employees were working who had had cancer allied to that, that sort of lack of cancer specific policies, there’s a total lack of training. So 78% of line managers had not received any training to support employees who were working with cancer, and the HR people responding basically said, yeah, they had major concerns about insensitive interactions and inadequate support being provided by their line managers. So that was one fundamental area, lack of policy and lack of training. And then the other thing, which was quite shocking was just limited awareness of disability support available, so only 54% of our respondents were aware of the Access to Work scheme which provides a whole variety of reasonable adjustments, at least funding for reasonable adjustments, which are absolutely critical to people return. To work with, not only cancer, but any chronic illness or disability. And quite shockingly, a quarter of our respondents didn’t actually understand the disability legislation in place things like the Equality Act. So know how to you know what their responsibilities were towards their employees. And we were really appalled by that piece of information.

Mervyn Dinnen 5:26
I can imagine. We will obviously put a link to the research in the show notes. I noticed you were saying about training managers, about being able to have sensitive com conversations. I think it was, it was almost a half, wasn’t it said that they they were worried that their line managers might say the wrong thing.

Barbara Wilson 5:48
Exactly, yeah. And I think just, just following up on that very often, people, line managers have not managed anyone with cancer before, and they on often, don’t know what to say or what to do and when and off that often ends in silence. In other words, they don’t do or say anything, and that’s kind of the worst thing they can do. So you know, HR managers representatives need to give their line managers the confidence and at least holding those conversations, because otherwise people won’t get the support that they need.

Mervyn Dinnen 6:27
Okay? And I mean, work is important to cancer patients. You again, on the research, the 40% I think, said that they’d work during their treat treatment. Why is it important?

Barbara Wilson 6:42
I think it’s important for a number of reasons. I think, on a fundamental level, it gives you an income, which is quite useful. On another level, it gives you some structure to your day. It gives you colleagues and people who you can talk to, it gives you a purpose in life outside of worrying about your cancer. So there’s almost a kind of both a kind of factual, physical level about what work gives you and and almost like a spiritual level of just feeling normal for a while and getting away from your cancer diagnosis.

Mervyn Dinnen 7:22
Yes, I think that also there was, I think it was just under half, wasn’t it said that they had worked through their treatment. But it was less common amongst, I think, front frontline workers, kind of people in manual and unskilled jobs, yeah, so younger people, I think, wasn’t it?

Barbara Wilson 7:39
Yeah. I mean, what tends to happen with younger people? Tend to, I guess, probably have less agency, if you know what I mean, in terms of the work. So are more worried about taking time off work, and are more worried that if they don’t turn up, it’s going to damage their, not only their career, but potentially they might be sacked. I mean, they often don’t know about their fact that they’re protected under the Equality Act. So for that reason, younger people tend to go back to work. I mean, one should never generalize, but go back to work too soon. Which potentially can, you know, disadvantage their recovery.

Mervyn Dinnen 8:21
Okay, what from your experience? What are the main kind of workplace adjustments, or working arrangement adjustments that employers tend to offer, and how does that compare with what they should be offering?

Barbara Wilson 8:37
Well, we this is an interesting part of the survey, we found that flexible working arrangements were offered some by something like 93% of the organizations who were surveyed, and that was things like flexibility in working hours or location, and that’s the most common adjustment, and that helps people manage their treatment schedule and their recovery needs. The only issue is that sometimes HR people confuse flexible working as a kind of part of one’s employment requirements and flexible working as allowed under the Equality Act, and they are two different things. They also provide employee assistance programs, which can be very helpful, but as we know from lots of research that’s been done, is often under utilized, and they also often make referrals to occupational health that was provided by something like 80% of the people we surveyed. The interesting thing is that the research we did as part of this, in the kind of case studies we did has actually and Previous research has shown that there are more effective methods of supporting people with cancer which are not used a great deal, things like providing work. Coaching to help people get back to work, providing vocational rehabilitation and physiotherapy. So it’s, you know, I think the things that are being used are relatively tried and tested and well known. I think very often people don’t like taking the risk of trying something that they’re not absolutely familiar with. In many ways, though, they can be actually more effective.

Mervyn Dinnen 10:27
And obviously, you know, cancer treatments, as I alluded to, from my own experience early, it kind of gives you a bit of a reassessment, kind of the the impact, I suppose, on people around balance, maybe looking at their life priorities, career priorities, also impacts on colleagues, because as well as friends and family, probably, you know, people have got colleagues that they’re close to as well. And it it, you know, it impacts all of them as well. I mean, did you do you find that is in some way, I suppose, a positive help? Or do you find that, again, this might be useful for HR people to know that if somebody is diagnosed, it kind of maybe leads to a shift in priorities when it comes to kind of work and things.

Barbara Wilson 11:20
Very good question that there’s been quite a lot of research that’s shown that that many people have had a cancer diagnosis reassess what they’re doing with their lives. And I think that’s kind of quite natural when you think about the fact that you know cancer is a life limiting illness, and you have quite, quite a lot of time, either waiting for scans or dealing with treatment, to kind of review, you know what your review your own mortality. And so I think that’s quite a natural response to cancer treatment. Many people do in time go on to do other things, or they may want to change their work work, or their working hours or whatever. But I think fundamentally, most people want to go back to work, and even those, I should say, with advanced cancer, and very often employers, you know, and HR professionals, will think they’re being kind to say, you know, why not spend more time with your family or, you know, tick off things off your bucket list? And actually, that’s not what most people want to do. So I think it is a life changing experience. But people are all different, and do that and deal with that in a whole variety of of ways. You’re right to say that cancer there’s a kind of ripple effect a diagnosis cancer not only affects the individual, it affects their family significantly, particularly, you know, if that, if the one member of the family is a working carer, it affects friends and colleagues. So it’s important for an employer to think about certainly work in their colleagues, and how many of them may be concerned or worried. You know that cancer can trigger emotions in friends and colleagues, which they find it difficult to deal with. So don’t just think about the immediate person involved, there are others affected.

Mervyn Dinnen 13:24
Is there also a differential around age or life stage?

Barbara Wilson 13:29
What do you mean Mervyn?

Mervyn Dinnen 13:32
That maybe different ages, older, midlife, younger? Do they feel very differently about kind of work and their cancer treatment?

Barbara Wilson 13:41
Well, I think, you know, younger employees, you know, are always, will typically be trying to balance, you know, having a family, paying the mortgage, all of the worrying about their career. So there’ll be a wide variety of issues they’ll be dealing with, which will be, probably, you know, of huge concern. You know, they’re worried about stalled career progression. They’re worried about the impact on their family, on their children. How do they tell their children? Very often, in the early stages of a diagnosis, particularly when you’re younger, you can be told your cancer is quite aggressive, and then you’re really quite worried about, you know your your situation in the in the short and medium term, you know whether you’ll see your children grow up psychologically. Cancer is has an enormous impact, particularly on younger people who you know, we all think at that age we’re invulnerable, but of course, we’re not.

Mervyn Dinnen 14:40
No definitely, so looking at obviously your research was about the workplace support. How should employers, how should HR leaders, maybe help coach, possibly their managers to have conversations with? With people who are having working whilst they’re having cancer treatment, maybe, you know, have come in for the first time to say, Listen, I’ve just been diagnosed, and there might be a bit unsure about what the future holds as well. What, what? How would you advise? Because, again, that might be an area where a lot of line managers and even directors might not have a lot of experience and might not really know might be either try, try and be too sensitive, or maybe not show enough.

Barbara Wilson 15:29
I think I’m going to answer this in two ways. Mervyn, one is what the manager should do, and then what, in a sense, HR should do. And sometimes the individual go to HR. But I always remember when, when I was sitting working at my desk one day and a guy came in to tell me that he’d had a cancer diagnosis, and I was halfway through, halfway through a sandwich, you know, and in a middle of a busy office and and you kind of think, what the hell do I do? And I think, as a manager, what the important thing to do is to go and find a quiet room and listen with empathy to what the person is telling you. So is to take that person to one side and say, Come on, let’s, let’s find somewhere where you can tell me what’s happening and see and I will see how I can help you. So I think it’s really important to listen to that person with empathy, quietly, not in the corridor, not in a busy office, you know, make the time for that person. It’s important what they’re telling you, and it’s and it’s important to talk about cancer, you know. So so don’t be embarrassed. Ask them how they are, what you can do and provide at that stage whatever information they feel they need, or at least signpost them to somebody who can. So I think that’s the most important thing, that that initial conversation is really important, you know, make the time, make the space. Whatever you’re doing, However busy you are, don’t, don’t say, can you come back in half an hour?

Mervyn Dinnen 17:13
No, I get that. I get that.

Barbara Wilson 17:16
In terms of what HR can do, I think, I think there are three major areas where they where they should think hard about about making changes. One is about having clear policies and practices that are understood and publicized and not hidden on some part of the intranet that’s not, not, not immediately obvious to find information, and it’s important to have specific policies. You know, I so often moving dealing with employees who’ve approached us for help, where the first thing they’ve heard from them employers are they’ve been called in for an interview with HR to explain their absence you know, which is not the kind of atmosphere you want to set. And there should be guidelines for for managers and employees on how to how to manage cancer in the workplace, and reassurance given, as part of that, about the fact that the company is supportive of those who have cancer or other chronic illnesses. So I think it’s important to have clear policies and practices which which are known and understood and available for people to look at. Secondly, I think it’s really important to encourage open conversations, because there is still a stigma about cancer, and people don’t like talking about cancer at work, and people fear discrimination. So I think it’s important that employers should visibly show their commitment and make it clear, if somebody’s been promoted, that if they’ve had cancer and they’re happy for that cancer to be discussed, that’s an important issue as a confidentiality issue, but it was important, you know, celebrate the fact that somebody’s been promoted into a senior role. You know, Chief Executive finance director had following their recovery, during their treatment for cancer. And then I think the third area is to provide training, training to line managers, training for HR, so that they understand what cancer is. You know, cancer isn’t one illness, it’s over 200 different illnesses, and everyone will have different reactions to their cancer treatment. So you know Mervyn, you could have had a twin brother with the same diagnosis of you as you, who might have had a very different reaction, either physically or emotionally, to their treatment to you. So it’s important for employees to understand that and to treat to treat people as individuals rather than. And kind of, you know, what is this generic policy telling me, you know, listen to what that person is going through, and how can you tailor support to meet their needs? So I think those are the three areas, clear policies and practices. Let’s have open conversations to reduce stigma about cancer in the workplace, and let’s provide managers and HR with proper training.

Mervyn Dinnen 20:26
And hopefully every employee that has cancer has a positive outcome. And that case, what about reintegrating people into the workforce. So it might be that someone’s had a period of time off, or maybe has been working reduced hours, reduced days, or, you know, as possibly, their work schedules have changed. What’s the best way to reintegrate? Because again, as you said, people when they’re diagnosed will have different emotions, and people, when they you know, fingers crossed, get the all clear, they’ll have different emotions as well, and different life priorities.

Barbara Wilson 21:07
So I think for from an employer’s perspective, it’s really important to plan. So I mean, there are some cases where people will have been working during their treatment, but, but typically, not all the time. I mean, you can’t work during surgery. And with chemotherapy, you might be able to start working at the outset, but then very often chemotherapy, it’s the impact is cumulative, so people have to give up for a while, and radiotherapy, similarly. So I think when assuming that person hasn’t been working a great deal and has finished what’s called active treatment, then I think it’s important for the employer to ate or stayed in touch with that person during during the whole period of their treatment, but then to kind of have a conversation with that person where you plan how that how their phased return to work to which everyone is entitled, will work out. Now, one of the issues is that phased returns do vary from employer to employer, and as we were saying earlier, everyone is different, so it’s important to put in place a plan which is flexible. So you might, for example, say that we’re going to start by doing two mornings a week, and then after a few weeks, work up to three or four minute mornings a week. It may well be that that that whatever’s been planned works brilliantly, or it may not, and you may have to pause. If you think of it like going up a staircase. You go up a couple of stairs, that’s fine. You go up the next couple of stairs, that’s fine. I’m actually a bit out of breath. I may have to pause before I go up the next, the next two steps. So you need to take it gradually.

Barbara Wilson 22:55
And that means, I say, planning. You can’t leave things to chance, keeping in touch really regularly to see how things are going. And Mervyn, one of the things that’s totally underestimated are the side effects of cancer treatment. These days, treatments can be very sophisticated immunotherapy. Many people have immunotherapy. They’ll be on hormone drugs and so forth, they can have the most appalling side effects. People need to rush to the loo. They’re having hot flushes. They’ve got they’ve got mobility problems. They may be and severe fatigue is a common side effect. So and people often have no idea how it’s going to impact them when they go back to work. In fact, they may feel great, so they plan to go back to work, because I feel like I can climb Malik Mount Kilimanjaro, and then after three weeks, they’re absolutely poleaxed. That’s not because they’re a bad person or they’re sort of damaged in some way. It just means that cancer is in insidious it’s not as we could it’s not a linear recovery. It’s not like you get one week. It’s always better than the next. So planning, talking, having, having, being flexible are really important things to help someone reintegrate back into work.

Mervyn Dinnen 24:18
No, definitely, definitely. And from my own experience, again, mine was after the radiotherapy of seven weeks. It was a course of immunotherapy injections. But yeah, one, one of the things of, obviously, we’re talking about HR within organizations that have a structure, whereas I’m on my own, but I actually just doing the job again. You know, working with people, you know, going out to expos and conferences and things, and just mixing with people was so important, yes, and so I can imagine kind of, you know, within the workplace again, it’s just feeling part of something again, or whilst you’re going through the treatment still. Feeling part of something, and then kind of the reintroduction brings you back in, if you like. So I can imagine that to we’re coming towards the end, we will put a link in the show notes. But if you you know what is the research called?

Barbara Wilson 25:16
It’s the, it’s the Bevan survey into employer, Employer Support, basically, okay, but then if you look up the Bevan survey, it should come up, and that’s named after, by the way, Stephen Bevin, who was a legend at the Institute of employment studies, who who was an ambassador for us, Mervyn, and he, unfortunately, he, died earlier this year from esophageal cancer, but a really great guy and hugely respected in the HR community and much more widely. So that’s why it’s called the Bevan survey, okay?

Mervyn Dinnen 25:52
And as a final question, I mean, is there anything that you would advise maybe we haven’t covered, I haven’t covered in the questions that came out of the research that you think is quite important, that in particular, I suppose HR people know to be able to help, not just support their people, but obviously support and coach their managers and leaders as well.

Barbara Wilson 26:15
I think it’s really important, in a sense, it’s allied to the survey. I think it’s really, not really important not to be complacent. So if you’re an HR person, listen to this, look at what you’re doing to support cancer survivors in the workplace, and talk to the people you know who’ve had cancer. Are you doing enough? It’s highly likely there’s more and better that you can do.

Mervyn Dinnen 26:40
Okay Barbara, it’s been a pleasure to have the conversation. Thank you very much. Is there a way people can connect with you afterwards?

Barbara Wilson 26:49
Yeah, if you go to our website on www.workingwithcancer.co.uk You can contact us via that.

Mervyn Dinnen 27:01
Barbara, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Barbara Wilson 27:05
Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai