Embracing Total Talent Thinking

Embracing Total Talent Thinking

Host: Mervyn Dinnen

Guest: Matt Alder, Talent Acquisition Futurist, Podcast Host and Co-author

In this episode Mervyn Dinnen talks to Talent Acquisition Futurist, Podcast Host and co-author Matt Alder about the emerging trends in hiring and retention.

During the conversation they cover:

• The emergence of skills-based hiring and why it is so important
• Total Talent Thinking – what it is and how it can help organisations successfully adapt the way they work
• Using Futurecasting as part of business planning to identify emerging trends
• How Generative AI is being used in the recruiting process – separating the hype from the reality
• What other technology trends we should look out for in the attraction and hiring process

Thanks for listening! Remember to subscribe to all of the HR Happy Hour Media Network shows on your favorite podcast app!

Transcript follows:

Matt Alder 0:18
Welcome to the HR Means Business podcast, which is part of the HR Happy Hour Network. I’m your host, Mervyn Dinnen. And today we’re going to have a good conversation about talent. All the trends currently impacting the talent ecosystem, which HR people really need to be aware of. And to have the conversation, I’m proud and privileged and very happy to be able to welcome my my good friend, my co collaborator, my co author of two books, exceptional talent and digital talent, and about start a third book, and a very successful podcast host in his own right. And Speaker, Matt Alder. Matt, would you like to introduce yourself?

Matt Alder 1:02
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on your podcast, it kind of makes a change because you’re normally on mine. But it’s nice to be answering the questions rather than asking them for a change. I think he did a pretty good introduction to me right there, I run the recruiting future podcast, we work together on lots of research. And obviously, we’ve written the two books, I also do a lot of work around the future of talent and the future of the industry, put out a lot of content about that, and also help people develop skills to understand and also help people develop skills to understand the future themselves, which is something that I’m just, which is something that I’ve just, which is something that I’ve just moved into. So yeah, lots of things going on. And really pleased to be here talking to you.

Matt Alder 1:49
Good. Well, it’s fairly packed agenda we have today. I want to start with probably one of the big trends that, and I’m sure a lot of listeners have heard talk of, but maybe don’t know, I suppose the reality and what is really behind it. And that is the topic of skills based hiring. It’s spoken about a lot. It’s written about a lot. I’ve just come back from an HR and talent conference in Europe, and it was being discussed all the time. What is skills based hiring?

Matt Alder 2:20
Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting question. It’s something that has been talked about for a long time, the volume around it, the volume around the narrative around it is at fever pitch at the moment. So you can’t go to a conference or open LinkedIn without someone talking about stalking about skills based hiring. And it really, what we’re talking about here is, is hiring people based on skills or skills that you need for your business and the skills that they have, or the skills that they can develop, rather than hiring people based on their previous experience or where they’ve worked before. So really all about future potential, all about understanding the skills in your business. If you did it properly, then it massively opens up talent pools, because you if you understand the skills you need, you can understand how those skills appear in other industries and other professions, opening up your talent pool. Good from a diversity perspective, as well, in terms of diverse talent pools and hiring people based on their their skills and their ability to do the job you have not not what they’ve done in the past, and huge amounts of other advantages around it, which is why people are talking about it so much. And on that level, it makes very logical sense. There’s some fantastic reasons that companies might want to look at it round, diversity, talent, availability, flexibility, you know, economic factors, the fact that the work is changing, that work is becoming much more skills and project based. So, you know, at that high level makes absolutely perfect sense. And that’s really why it’s being talked about so much at the moment.

Matt Alder 4:06
Would you say this is something that is fairly, you know, across the workforce, or is this something that I suppose with with Gen Z, I suppose, the newer entrants into the workforce, who are very loyal to their skills and wants to develop skills, and they know everything is changing all the time. Is this something being bought about by by them, you think, or it’s something a whole right across the business?

Matt Alder 4:34
It’s a real combination of factors. Because this way of thinking about work and talent has been around for a really long time. There’s nothing Yeah. And I think sometimes people look at this and say, well, there’s nothing new about this. We’ve been talking about skills and tasks and competencies and all that sort of thing for a really long time. But what’s happening right now is we’ve got this kind of real convergence of factors. So as you say, there is a generation coming into the workforce that thinks about work and loyalty very deep. for living, the pandemic has massively accelerated things because it’s disrupted. It’s disrupted businesses, there’s been a huge amount of digital transformation going on. And it’s changed the way that people think they change the way that everyone thinks about work and their relationship with work. You also have technology coming in, that makes skills based thinking and skills based, hiring easier by providing platforms to do it. And really just the speed at which things are changing is is a key part of this, because I think that, you know, in the past, you’d hire someone based on what they could do, and their experience would be irrelevant for a really long time. Because the skills that we needed to do jobs change so quickly now, I’ve spoken to some l&d professionals recently, and they said, in some cases, they’re seeing skills turnover in six months.

Matt Alder 5:52
And it’s kind of like, I think there’s a big thinking from from employers, it’s like, well, how do we deal with this? How do we know that we were recruiting the right people and all those kinds of things. So it’s a perfect storm of factors that have come together. That mean, that’s where everyone’s looking at right now. But when you dig below the surface, very often, every company has a very different reason for doing it. So we one of those reasons, but but but not kind of universally across the board. But the the aggregated effect is that, you know, it’s very much the thing that everyone wants to talk about right now.

Matt Alder 6:26
And it plays very much into a theme that we wrote about finding I found a second book, and and I’m sure in the third, but we’ll be exploring a lot more detail, which is the concept of total talent thinking. And the way organizations now have to approach effectively how the work gets done by a whole range of of people of skills of knowledge of tasks of we drew out a model of total talent thinking for the second book, for those who haven’t seen it. Why don’t you tell us a bit more about total talent thinking what it is, what are the constituent parts?

Matt Alder 7:05
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll give a quick overview of it. And then I want to give an example based on the skills based skills based hiring thing about where it’s been particularly particularly relevant. So really, the idea is about breaking down the silos in HR, because employers need to think about talent in a much more holistic ways, like, what skills do we need in our business? And when do we need them. And you can’t really address that, in the kind of people structures that we have now, where you have separate talent acquisition, separate talent management, separate learning and development, you know, everything is done in a silo, you know, with varying degrees of cooperation, depending on the organization that you’re working for. So this is a way of looking at looking at talent right across the board, and just saying, what skills do we need in the organization and when when do we need them. And it might be that those skills are there, we might be hiring people, we might be buying skills in a by b, the AI is providing some of the some of the skills for us. So it’s kind of taking that sort of workforce, strategic workforce planning, approach to things, but then reflecting that in the way that the people function is built out. So. And I think one of the things that was big for us in the book was this came from the whole employee lifecycle, so giving a talent, this disjoined up experience as they moved through the organization. And then I think when we thought about it a bit more, it was like, well, actually, this is the this is the strategy, this sense of, you know, looking at talent holistically. And you can only do that if you have, you know, talent acquisition and Talent Management, or learning development in particular, you know, working together on the same strategy, you know, whether they’re the same team or their teams that are working together, or there are a group of specialists, this really seems like the way forward. And it’s kind of really resonated, whenever we’ve talked about it, it’s always been an aspiration that many organizations are kind of heading towards.

Matt Alder 9:05
To give you a kind of practical example with the skills based hiring I’ve recently taken part in a recently. I recently did a piece of research in conjunction with a company called vector. And we wanted to look at what the reality of skills based thinking and skills based hiring was because you have this narrative that conferences, it’s really important everyone’s to do it. You have a real kind of vendor driven narrative that the technology is there to do it. And all you have to do is buy this platform, and all your skills based problems are sold forever. We just wanted to kind of dive in and find out what is the reality behind this. So we spoke to 10 big global enterprise companies to kind of get their sense of you know, what’s going on with with skills based thinking skills based hiring. And it was a bit of a surprise, the surprise was that no one had really moved massively forward with this It was something that everyone felt was important. They were dedicating resources to it. When you dig below the surface, there were lots of issues and difficulties and things that aren’t talked about at conferences around things like skills, taxonomies, and skills going out date that date very quickly. And the reality was, it was a lot further back than that I think we were expecting. However, the companies, there were a couple of organizations who were further ahead than anyone else. And the reason they were further ahead than anyone else was, there was this sense of total collaboration between talent acquisition, talent management, and l&d, and they were looking at this, in the rounds, they were looking at this as a skills based thinking exercise, so not just about talent acquisition, not just about internal to the company, just looking at the whole thing, in terms of how we think about skills. And to me, that was a great example of total time of thinking. And I think it sort of really led me to the conclusion that you can’t have skills based hiring without total talent thinking. And without sort of, you know, removing those silos. And having a strategy that goes across goes across everything, you cannot do this in isolation, it just doesn’t, it just doesn’t work. And I think every company we spoke to acknowledge that, but obviously, some of them were further ahead with that collaboration and cooperation than than others. So they really, they really go together. You can’t you can’t really, you can’t do skills based without, without thinking about talent in this kind of way.

Mervyn Dinnen 11:28
And obviously, it’s an important part of any policy around this is the future. And the one of the things I see is definitely going to the number of conferences I go to is a lot of people come to them because they want to know it almost, you know, what are the trends? What’s going to happen next? What do we need to be aware of, and I know, this is something that you’re quite strong on a subject called Future casting, which I know you’ve done a bit of work on, and you and I have both when it comes to planning our books and things and playing some of the talks we give together, have been doing this. So as I’ve got you on, why don’t you explain to you can do better than me? What is future casting? And I suppose the what, what kinds of things can organizations can HR people listening to this start to do to be able to bring this into their their teams or their organizations?

Matt Alder 12:27
I think it’s something that’s incredibly important, I think one of the issues that we have at the moment is with things changing so quickly. And a lot of that change is driven by so we’ve had all the post pandemic work changes, you know, we now have generative AI, you know, kind of ripping up rulebooks as it as it kind of threatens to, you know, go through, go through organizations, and we can talk about, you know, how far that’s progressing maybe a bit later in the conversation. But, you know, time after time is a disruption. And I think one of the things that I see from a lot of, you know, talent functions and talent professionals is that there is sometimes a little bit of perceived helplessness, it’s like war events are happening to us, we can’t possibly predict the future because, you know, we don’t know what’s going on with AI, we don’t know what’s going on with, you know, the economy with everything else that’s going on, it’s just such a volatile time, they can be a feeling that we are being controlled by events, we are not in control. And so, to me, that’s really not the case. And I think that it’s really important to develop tools and mindsets and methodologies to you know, not only, you know, try and anticipate what the future is, but and plan for that, but actually actively shape it as well, you know, everything is up for grabs at the moment. And I think that, you know, having a way of working in a way of thinking that helps you shape the future, you know, within your organization, within your career within talent as a whole is incredibly important. I think that’s where people should, should be. So in terms of the sort of the tools to do that their strategic foresight is a kind of an academic discipline, it’s something that is used in, in general strategic planning. You know, it’s the kind of thing people people use tools to help predict where, where things are going.

Matt Alder 14:18
And I think, to me, it’s something that we should absolutely have in the people function in talent, acquisition and everything, in terms of that sense of anticipating the future. So I’ve done a lot of work on building a model that I think will work in our in our sector round here. And there’s a lot of different there’s lots of different bits to it. And I can give people a URL that they can go to, to to find out more information, but it’s very specifically to sort of focus on that future casting bit. The reason that we call it future casting is you go you’re looking to do you’re looking to the future, but you’re forecasting and when you forecast you normally forecast based on information from the past. So, you know, here are the numbers that we had for the last four years, so we’ll look at them will allow some growth and we’ll forecast out from that future casting is more than that, it’s actually looking to the future and not always having that information from the, from the from the past. And to me, the main part of this is spotting the trends that are going on that are really going to have an impact on what we do, and really kind of embracing that. So there’s, there’s kind of six parts to this model. And I won’t, I’ll just sort of mentioned them very, very quickly. And if you want to pick up on a couple of them, we can talk about a bit more. But, you know, the first part is really understanding the forces that are driving changes, like what you know, what’s happening here, what’s driving things forward. And that will be, you know, macro forces, micro forces, you know, politics, economics, things going on within businesses, talent supply, you know, all those big topics that are out there, it’s just kind of understanding how they’re driving driving change, I think there’s the second, the second part is focusing on things that are likely to happen. So although, you know, especially with the pandemic, it feels like everything’s predictable.

Matt Alder 16:02
You know, we’re recording this on a Monday, I think there’s a very strong chances to be Tuesday, tomorrow, give or take some kind of apocalyptic capacity or catastrophe. So I think that there is a there is a sense of, of actually, that all these things are things that are very likely to happen. So for example, you know, we know that billions of dollars of research is being put into generative AI at the moment. So we can probably be pretty sure that there will be some significant developments, and it will be a big a big thing moving forward as quick example. And then obviously, you know, when you’re looking at trends is like, which which are the trends are the ones that matter. The fourth part is learning from adjacent areas, what’s going on in other industries, what’s going on in other parts of our business? How are our marketing department planning for the future, for example, you know, those kinds of things, there’s an element of studying historical patterns. Because I think you can look to the past to predict the future, you just have to be very, very careful about that. Because, you know, things will happen, but they may happen differently. And just because something happened one way in the past, it doesn’t mean it’s gonna happen that way in the future, but there are some tools you can use to really dig into your biases around that. And then the part of the final part is is is the uncertainties and the complication. So as as people like to sometimes call this the, the unknown unknowns of which the pandemic is arguably one, if you’re a public health professional, you might argue that the pandemic was inevitable and predicted, and just not prepared for. But certainly in the most of the worlds that we live in. It was an unexpected, it was an unknown unknown. And I think it’s like, you have to anticipate that everything that you you have planned and thought about may change tomorrow. And there’s a mindset around that about about flexibility. So there are just some elements of it. As I said, I’ve pulled a huge amount together around around this, because I think it’s such an important topic, and I can tell people where they can find that at the end of the, at the end of the conversation.

Mervyn Dinnen 18:07
Okay now, as you say, it’s quite fascinating. And one of the points cuz I, when I’m speaking, I referenced this as well, future casting, and one of the examples I give is to deal with the pandemic, I say, if you know, I was talking to you about this in 2019, the chances are, we wouldn’t have thought of a global health pandemic as around the corner. But that what’s important, as we say, is the trends because you and I worked on a research project in 2018, where we surveyed 14,000 job seekers. And what came through of that, in fact, one of the reports from it was was called is the future of work at home. Because in 2017-18, when we did our survey, or over, around two thirds of people said that they wanted some flexibility in the work they did, that they felt they could work from home didn’t have to be in a specific location, or wanted to manage their, their, their time more. But that at the time, it was just this is what people wanted, but it wasn’t really I suppose in some places, it was a conversation, but it wasn’t overall within the general HR talent sectors, a big conversation until the pandemic, but what what the pandemic did the trend that we wouldn’t have spotted was actually, you know, make it possible almost give it legitimacy as as as a trend, and now of course, it it dominates probably over dominates all the conversations around HR in the world of work, and will do so for years to come. I’m sure. The obviously as we’re talking about kind of trends coming up, not really knowing what the impact is going to be.

Mervyn Dinnen 19:48
The most obvious one as as we sit and talk here at this moment in time is is AI generative AI and I know you’ve done a bit on this as well, so I’ve seen I’ve seen stuff you’ve written. I know you’ve had a few interviews on it. And in fact, I always one of the things I often quote you, you had a conversation, I think a year ago, 18 months ago about recruiter list recruiting, you know, what AI Bri, recruiters recruiting, from which I’ve been talking about, and I was doing a conference last week. Yeah, does that mean we’ll have cumulus human resources, which won’t, but what we then go on to, or what I go on to is putting the humanity into human resources alongside the AI. So in terms of the hype versus reality of AI? What What how do you see that the moment you know, where are we? How much is hype? How much is reality? And where did the two meet?

Matt Alder 20:45
Yes. You know, is the is the million dollar question. It’s such a fascinating time, I was actually before it. Before I came on this podcast, I was talking to someone reflecting back over all the kinds of technology, technological revolutions, we’ve sort of seen in the last 10 To 10 to 20 years. And what I would say is, I think this is the most significant since the internet came along and disrupted everyone and everything and about, I think he’s probably more significant. But in terms of the state of play right now, I think when Gen Gen AI came on the scene, it was greeted by a level of hype, I don’t think I’ve ever seen in my entire life with seemingly sensible people saying things like that, like that we’d all be out of a job within six months, and all this kind of stuff. Now, obviously, that hasn’t happened. And it’s kind of like, where’s that, where’s the reality of it. And I think, again, if you look at the narrative that’s around it, a lot of it is very, very future focused, it’s like this is going to happen, you know, this is going to change this, this is going to happen, all these kinds of things. If we kind of take a step, take a step back and say, well, actually, you know, what’s happened so far, you know, the adoption level is probably fairly low. Because I think a lot of companies have concerns around privacy and things like that. However, the adoption level on the on an individual basis is probably quite high. So I think people are using the tools that are available to make their jobs easier, even if that isn’t officially sanctioned by the by the by the company, which kind of reminds me of the internet all over all, all over again. And obviously, we’re at a point where every single HR tech vendor, and you know, all the subsets of that learning and talent acquisition is baking AI into their solution in one degree or another, either from or they’re saying they’re doing it or they’re not doing much, or putting some of the publicly available incident wins in there or developing something a bit more sophisticated. So it’s a kind of a bit of a can be confusing time at the moment, because I don’t think we can really look to too many examples of where it’s made some of the changes that we’re talking about. One of the exceptions to that is in the talent acquisition space, where the AI use by job seekers is making a fundamental difference, because individuals are moving much quicker than companies.

Matt Alder 23:13
So, you know, a number of big employers that I’ve spoken to recently have seen massive increases in the number of applications that they’re getting, particularly in things like early careers. And a lot of that has been driven by the candidate use of, of AI. And, you know, there is a scenario in there that actually, this fundamentally breaks the way that recruiting works. And there’s some kind of big rethinking that needs to go on there. Probably a topic for another podcast, because I could talk about that for talk about that for hours. So it may seem to lots of the HR professionals listening but not not much is happening at the moment, it would be quite easy to say, this is the extent of the AI revolution, and I see these tools can really help us and moving forward, we’re going to be in this kind of copilot era, where AI is going to do all the bits of my job that I don’t like and make them more efficient. But actually, fundamentally, nothing’s changing my career is the same, the roles are the same. And that is where I think they’re dangerous, because we are just at the beginning of this, and the leaps forward, the capacity. You know, we don’t even fully appreciate what this technology is gonna be able to do in a really short time. And I always come back to an interview that I heard Sam Altman from open AI dealing with Bill Gates on this topic where, you know, be premium funding and said the next five to 10 years total exponential disruption from Ai. Now he would say that because that’s his job, but you know, I don’t think it’s too far off the market. But I think the killer line was he said, you know, if you’ve got more than five years left in your career, this absolutely concerns you, and it concerns you right now. So I think there are potentially fundamental changes in terms of The way that we all work and things that AI can do. We’re in a danger period now where people feel that they understand it, they feel that they can see what the potential is. But I think that actually, no one can fully appreciate the potential. So it’s time to be really aware time to experiment and time to really understand what’s going on, and have a really flexible, open minded approach to things because I’ve got a real sense that things might change fundamentally, very, very quickly.

Mervyn Dinnen 25:34
It’s fascinating that and in fact, it’s interesting, you’ve left that there, because that’s going to kind of take me on to my, my, I suppose my final question and my final talking point with you. But no, I mean, I would just back up everything you say. They’re not just because we’re probably going to be writing about it soon in the next book, but because, you know, we, we discussed this a lot. And it’s, I think, we both feel the same that there are a lot of quick wins at the moment. And as you say, it’s the job seekers, interestingly, that have been on it first. And it’s but the quick wins never really are the ones that dictate the direction of of travel, shall we say, which will take a lot more time to do so. Aside from generative AI, aside from skills based hiring, from all the conversations you have on your podcast, and you know, you’re out at events, conferences, you know, speaking on webinars all over the world, what are there any other trends around talent around kind of talent acquisition, shall we say that thinking of HR people in particular they should be aware of, or things that, you know, might be coming under hrs remit? That are things they maybe haven’t even planned for yet?

Matt Alder 26:55
Yeah, I think what I’ve done here is because there’s so much going on, you know, we’ve got, as we talked about, we’ve got this move towards skills, we’ve got the changing attitudes to work, we’ve got a brand new and radically different generation in the workforce, and we’ve got a crazy bit of technology that, you know, may may see the end of the world. So it’s kind of a, it’s a heady mix of stuff in terms of spotting trends. So what I did is part of the, the exercise around the sort of future casting models and everything that I’ve been working on, and the scenario planning and things like that, is I actually think we can sort of put these in three buckets. So I think there’s three kind of key themes that are the trends here, and we’ve talked about all of them, but we’ll talk about two of them, certainly. So the first one is a new way of thinking about talent. And you know, that’s a very broad, it’s a very broad thing. But, you know, that encompasses total talent thinking, skills based hiring, and I think it’s just a flag to people to say, you know, the way that we get talent skills into our business that we’ve done for decades is not going to be relevant moving forward. And we need to really rethink about, you know, even things like what is an employee? And, you know, what is the skill? How do we know what skills we need. So I think there’s some kind of fundamental thinking that needs to kind of happen around that. So a real new, you know, new new way of thinking new ways of thinking about talent, is my number one. But number two, I’m calling smart automation. And I think that is dealing with the implications of AI. And a lot of that is, if we think about how AI is going to change jobs, a lot of that is automating things that may even be surprising to us. And as we move forward, I also think one of the things about automation is, it’s very likely to happen at an enterprise level. So I had a real eye opener, I was talking to a robotic process automation company, on my podcast a few months ago, you know, and they sell an enterprise platform, they they sell into the C suite to automate everything in finance, and sales and marketing. And obviously, the the people element of that follow. So it may well be that the automation of the enterprise is not within our immediate control. And the reason I call it smart automation is the only way this is really going to work is if we really consider the human aspect of all of this and you know, where humans sit.

Matt Alder 29:20
And you know, how that how that kind of works at scale. So the potential is enormous. I think from a recruiting perspective this could create can make recruiting amazing in terms of giving companies the skills they need at just the right time, and giving, you know, giving candidates employees, you know, the job that’s perfect for them, you know, with the right compensation and the right benefits. And I just think there is a utopia out there so that we could we could get to, but we got to be smart about it. And we got to make sure that you know, talent and people is at the table in this conversation and we know what’s possible on it. had to kind of achieve it. So that kind of smart automation. That’s what I mean by that. And then the third one really comes off the back of that, which is all about personalization, and persuasion. So I know that personalization is something that we’ve talked about a great length through the employee lifecycle, but I think AI really gives us the opportunity to do that. And it’s starting to crop up I’ve seen, I did an interview with the Chief People Officer at Zapier a few weeks ago, and they have an entirely automated onboarding system that’s personalized to each individual. And because it’s personalized, people get much more out of it, they would more conventional Cuban centric onboarding process. So I think when we talk about personalization, that’s what I mean personalization at scale, taking this automation that’s going on, and this new way of thinking about talent, and actually giving people this incredible experience that’s personalized, that is going to really sort of drive their, their productivity and everything like that. So that personalization is a big thing. And I twin this with persuasion, because, ultimately, particularly comes to acquisition. You know, the machines can can do a lot, but we’re talking about fundamentals of human behavior here, and how do you persuade someone that this is the company, the company for them? So there’s a big human element in that, but also, I think there’s elements of things like behavioral science and cognitive science and neuro psychology, just in terms of understanding, you know, how people work and how we can, you know, how we can, at the nicest level influence them to, you know, to join our organization, or do whatever do whatever it is. So, you know, I think I think they’re the, they’re the trends, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a bad side and a good side to all of them, which is why I think it’s so important that people are really understand what’s going on and kind of step up and help influence the influence the future, because now is the time to do that. Not in two or three years time when when things are already far down the track. So that’s why it’s just I think it’s incredibly bored to me, but I think they’re they’re, they’re they’re kind of three buckets of things I think we’re working with.

Mervyn Dinnen 32:09
Matt, it’s been an absolute pleasure, most most of our communication between each other his messages during the day and stuff. So we don’t often have these conversations as we live at opposite ends of the UK. But it’s been great to have the conversation with you. There are some really, really important points there that I hope listeners from both human resources, TA, and people from the commercial side of the business, listen to and understand. If people want to know a bit more about you, how can they contact you? Where can they hear you?

Matt Alder 32:41
So I’m very easy to find on LinkedIn. My podcast is the recruiting future podcast, specifically some of the things that I’ve been talking about. In this conversation, I’ve got sort of two, two places that people can go to find out more. So I’ve actually got a white paper about how a free white paper around how AI is, you know, the impact of AI on tag acquisition in this medium short term. So you can find that by going to MattAlder.me/transform. Also if you want to find out more about future casting, then you can go to MattAlder.me/course.

Matt Alder 33:23
Okay, I might put a link to the paper in the show notes. Matt, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me and enjoy the rest of your day.

Matt Alder 33:36
See you. Thank you very much for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai